Constructive Criticism

[kempff]

I've toyed with this idea for some time. Bare with me in the first two paragraphs.

We are not writers on here, we are collaborators learning to bring out roles/types of characters created by ourselves. We lack the prose element to call the Role-Play we do as any kind of "writing", if you get my meaning.

So, do we ever approach a point where we are "writing" more than we are role-playing? And how do we set goals and have fun at the same time? edit: I have GROSSLY misrepresented my topic here. I am sorry. I mean to say, how do we develop our role-play, NOT make it into prose writing.

With as an objective mind as possible, we should give and receive criticism, while also having fun on FM.
Some may argue it's more important to have fun, but I have been present to many individuals who are flustered at the level of "maturity" and sophistication they find in the RP online; they are no longer satisfied and the fun they had is no more.
More often than not I believe this is due to no advice or criticism being given that develops their understanding of this hobby or the ability to improve their skill in this hobby.

Would FMers be in support of a Board solely dedicated to giving criticism of RP on FM? Of any member in particular? Of any character or particular RP?

To elaborate on criticism and to not elicit knee-jerk reactions; criticism is not a harsh word, and paired with Constructive Criticism it a wonderful process of learning. If you believe the intent of this suggestion is "Your RPing sucks, get better" or is facetious in nature, you are wrong, but do not take offense.
It should be expected that being told an alternative view point, is not the most settling thing; yet, we have to work with others in our lives and one day we MUST work with others in order to live stably.

Having said this all, and straying from the potentiality of a first post far too long, the main problem I see is establishing: who is giving the criticism, how are they giving it, and when are they giving it.

Let me iterate finally, if you do not feel you can take criticism, this is probably a bad idea. Please let this be known. Instead of a poll, I wanted concrete open ended answers. I'm being both sincere and objective in the discussion of this, but if emotion is too strong, criticism may be useless, slighted, or ignored.

edit2: I should probably add that none of us are "informed" or can come from an angle where our opinion should hold more weight than any other.

[lysander]

I don't want to get angered at for writing such a short post, but -shrug-.

I want to see this happen in one form or another. I'm tired of knowing something is wrong with my posts and not knowing what.

-shrug- That's it.

[LEO LION]

I guess my only thing to say is - make sure the persons you're criticizing WANT to be criticized, you might hurt someone's feelings if suddenly they see themselves being talked about (think of criticizing like this as if you're talking behind someone's back). The only reason I bring that up is because you mentioned "Would FMers be in support of a Board solely dedicated to giving criticism of RP on FM? Of any member in particular? Of any character or particular RP?" (that comment just made it seem [to me] like you were about ready to pounce on anyone and everyone who you think need improvement, and maybe they like where they're at; don't give "help" to people that don't want it, that's all I'm saying there).

I believe if someone wants to further their writing and if someone wants to improve beyond where they're at now they will ask for guidance. (Take Knave for example from KHRPF, he would ask his RP partners to give him pointers on his posts, I thought that was a wonderful thing, a great way to gain critiques while not cluttering boards up - I do believe it was accomplished completely via private messages).

So, that said, I don't think we need a board for criticisms, but perhaps people you can ask instead.

[kempff]

Sept 10, 2009 13:55:12 GMT -5 LEO LION said:

So, that said, I don't think we need a board for criticisms, but perhaps people you can ask instead.

That's a very good point you made about Knave, and I think this sentence led me to wonder about if not a board....maybe a thread label in the title? To indicate the people in the thread had agreed they were going to give critique of one anothers' RP.

Doing so would control how criticism is given and not let it be abused such as you mentioned. The label could made in the Thread in the first post even, but I think it needs to be a universally accepted "label" everyone agrees on and not member specific.

The idea of certain threads being used for criticism, while most are not (theoretically, I doubt people if they did use this, would do it THAT much), seems to fit the groove of FM better. I also think more people would actually participate in this, while a board would be left empty most of the time and honestly, we don't need more things for the staff to do. Most I see for the staff is if a thread somehow breaks out into a fight, but hopefully self-policing by the members prevents enough of this.

Thanks for the answer! And your stubby little answer was fine Brezzen. : D

[III]

I suggested something like that.

Well, kinda. Not really, my suggestion was geared more towards the characters themselves.

Personally, I think that if a forum were to be created, criticism must be doled out on a by-request basis. You can't just plop in there and say: "Let's talk about Xaldin's flaws-" (though I personally wouldn't mind) but rather, would have to wait for whoever owns Xaldin to pop in there and request for a criticism. Ditto with role-playing in general.

I'd vote yea.

[kempff]

I read through the thread, and the ideas are similar, the exception is I'm talking about someone's role-play as a whole. The characters would just be part of the critique.

Loveless's post really shows how something like this should be approached. We'll wait for more input and see if this seems popular, but if your thread is any indication, it may not be wanted or interesting.

[servant]

How would you define "good role-play" then? I assume you make the distinction that roleplaying is not writing─before you begin giving constructive cricism, you first need to make sure you're thinking of the same thing, and have the same, general standards to determine what is and what is not good roleplaying.

[Rocket!]

*mutters something about objectiveness being relative*

[kempff]

There's a misconception with your comment Trap, re-read my post.

I never state that anyone is making standards. That is not the point. WE can't make standards, as Rocket referred to, they're relative to whomever makes them. It's the same problem that Loveless pointed out.

The second proposal, in my later comment, illustrates a solution to this: member agreeing when they like, working with one another, in threads with the purpose of providing collective criticism from the participants.

As I said before, the problem is how this is done, who gives it when, and when it is given.

Granted, these threads can't be,

Person 1: I like the overall idea, it's working, but you know, I'm not feeling it dog. Try harder. But good job!
Person 2: I agree, just keep it up and you can go far! That's the right idea!
Person 3: You suck. Stop rping. Stop this thread.

like American Idol, that wouldn't accomplish anything.

People should be expected to be responsible, sensible, and considerate. Do not give criticism you are afraid may insult; instead reword, re-think, and re-articulate so the idea and improvement are foremost above any personal distaste. And that's the point of this suggestion, promoting the exchange of ideas, technique, style, idea of how events unfold, etc.

We need guidelines yes, but we don't need policies and rules for this. That defeats the purpose, and I doubt anyone wants to police people as their only job to make sure they can offer criticism.

[servant]

Wouldn't it be easiest then to make a thread where people offer their "criticise services" alongside a small profile or whatever, and then you PM them with your thread and bladi-da, and they hand you the criticism in PM or post in the thread once it's dead/finished? When someone's not being constructive, you can just work it out with them OR step to a moderator, and you can 'ban' people from the list if they're just using it as an opportunity to troll/insult people.

Criticism can be given whenever requested ("I don't feel too good about this post, what do you think?" or "Hey, I think I did pretty great. What about you?") or whenever the Critigiver thinks, "Hm, I should comment on this latest post here because I think it is important".

In the end, I think criticism is best given in private between people rather than openly. Making a thread with all people who are open to criticising others, and allowing people to 'pick' whose commentary they want would solve at least your "who gives it" problem, and with some regulation on who does and does not give acceptable commentary, you can 'ban' people from the list as you see fit.

Is the train to Trap Thoughtland still going the right way, or are you completely lost now? I admit I may be a bit lost on... some of your points.

[kempff]

Um, Trap, I'm not following your post. Are you thinking these threads are open to the entire forum?

Thread for Criticism
Member A
Member B

Member A asks Member B to join the thread. Member A posts, gives commentary on whatever, Members B posts, gives commentary or criticism; it depends entirely on what they want to focus on. There is no format for this besides members trying to communicate their ideas in a public matter. They can edit in changes, they can decide to not do this, etc. People are themselves.

I want to ask you though, why do you think private messages would make this easier? That's another box where you type text, change windows, etc. That's twice the amount of time. And most importantly, it takes away the purpose of members showing their discussion. The idea of this is a closed thread, but with a public stage. I'll clarify, people shouldn't try to wow people in these threads, you're not being true to yourself or your role-play, or learning to role-play with others in a "better" manner. Just role-play as you would, be honest, make an attempt to grow.

Hopefully people don't think I'm saying I know how to RP above others, personally I think my current is terrible and uninteresting.
I'll wait a bit longer before to see if this gets anymore support or criticism before alerting staff or a mod.

[servant]

I want to ask you though, why do you think private messages would make this easier? That's another box where you type text, change windows, etc. That's twice the amount of time.

Proper criticism is given in private, not publically. This is the first lesson I was taught in communication classes, and I believe it holds enough merit. Psychological effects are involved that I will not pretend to understand enough to argue here. (nor do I care enough to want to drive the point home or be driven home. )

I meant you make:

Thread: "ASk 4 help heer lol"
----> Member A posts here they want to help others by giving cricism.
----> Member B follows A's example.

Member C makes a thread with Member D.

They check the Ask 4 help thread and agree that they'd like Member A's input, and PM Member A a request for criticism. Member A provides such on demand, and when suitable, through private channels.

In the end, the criticism is personal and private, and any elementary mistakes made are pointed out in private rather than made public for all your peers to see. True, others will make the same mistakes if not witnessing someone else make it, but you learn best from making mistakes.

[kempff]

Thread: "ASk 4 help heer lol"

Was that necessary?

As for the "private" aspect, this is the internet, it's already private enough. And no, I don't get why your communications class lesson holds much merit here with that in mind.
Did you know that Texas has the most inmates per state in the US? Does that mean all Texans should be suspected of being violent and aggressive, or that they all fear one another? Perhaps Texas is willing to house inmates from other states, or merely has different ideas about Prisons and punishment. There's more to a so-called "fact" than meets the eye.

Do you really think people looking to improve RP through constructive criticism want to increase the workload on top of normal RP and posting? Almost no one actually reads thoroughly their investment statements, instead they trust their banks to handle their money, arguably (sadly) our most valuable possession in life. Having everything in one place is much more preferable than multiple spots to keep up with.

In the end, the criticism is personal and private, and any elementary mistakes made are pointed out in private rather than made public for all your peers to see.

Except everyone on the forum sees all of your other RP, and will see this one. You can't remove opinions other people have of you by being silent, and certainly taking your discussion privately will not do anything. Public discussion is much different from private. Why is everyone so scared to get a few words of criticism suddenly, from your point of view?
Don't be an ass, a frank way of saying what I posted above, when giving your criticism. It's very simple to solve this problem if there needs to be punishment, take away someone's criticism for others privilege permanently. And don't forget, none of us are just amazing at RP (though from your posts and knowing you, I'm sure you don't think that). We might like what we do, we might think we do some things well; none of us are more qualified to say X over Y or Z, and neither should we think we will magically get better by hammering out RP after RP. Yet, learning the techniques of others, getting different points of view, understanding why certain things are entertaining would seem to lead to getting over that next bump on the road to improving one's ability to role-play with others.

Is there anything else you feel iffy on, Trap? (If you'd like we could be handling this in PM rather than making a dozen posts between one another, a good example of using Private Messages, by the way.) In the end, the option to pm criticism or to have it publicly shown may be the best route! If more people are pleased, I do not see why this could not be the case. Does that seem fair to you?

[prythian]

A simple compromise here seems to be the best solution: Let people CHOOSE which one they want.

A board for Criticism would work with my idea. This idea is that we have two types of threads: Those for people who want to be ASKED for criticism, and those that ask for criticism, leaving themselves 'open to all', in other words.

In asking for criticism, the person can specify whether they want their criticism over PM or in the thread. Also, people offering criticism to those that ask can specify whether they want to give it over PM or in the thread as well. It seems a simple and fair solution to this 'private vs. public' thing that appears to be going on here.

[kempff]

A simple compromise here seems to be the best solution: Let people CHOOSE which one they want.

Indeed, look at the end of my last post.

In the end, the option to pm criticism or to have it publicly shown may be the best route! If more people are pleased, I do not see why this could not be the case. Does that seem fair to you?

Explicitly saying this is for the best though, among the members that would use it.