"Good Writing"

[servant]

So I was skimming threads and I noticed Nascent's grading of someone's Roleplay prowess. In and of itself not a bad thing but interesting, but then there is something that latches out to me and that is when Nascent starts making notes about the writing style and how to "improve" on it.

A firm believer that there is no such thing as a 'good writing style', I am curious now whether people believe there is such a thing and, if they do believe so, what would be 'good writing styles' and what would be 'bad writing styles'?

[nascent]

Yeah... I had a feeling that this was going to come up sooner or later.

Please don't misunderstand me; there's a distinct difference between conventions of writing and what makes writing good, and I'm no Grammar Nazi or anything of the sort. I'm a firm believer that the only way to truly define good writing (and thus good RP) is whether or not it "draws the reader in" to the story, and how well it does this.

As for a "good writing style", you're absolutely right: there isn't one. There are many, perhaps more than anyone can possibly know. In that sense, you and I are completely agreed.

Still, it's helpful for people to be proficient with the "normal" way to do things before they try to find their own path. It's like an old artist friend of mine used to say: "you have to know the rules before you can break them". I'm all for unconventionality and inventive styles of writing... I just think they should be built on a strong foundation first. So when I teach and evaluate RP, I start with the conventional wisdom of writing. Over time it moves onto more abstract aspects of "making good RP", such as strategy for RP battles and in-depth character building.

Sorry if I caused some confusion and worry over this. ^_^;;

[servant]

Let me stress that in no way did I mean to imply that it is wrong to differentiate between 'good' and 'bad' writing styles -- sorry if I came off that way.

I'm just curious on people's views as it stuck to me that I never really stopped to think about it, my right honourable friend.

[kempff]

These kind of conversations go hand and hand on here, no worry Nascent, our collective ability to be mature and actually understand RP will help keep these kinds of topics on the topic at hand. People who know me know that I love to chat about this.

I am always against making writing an institution or talking about it in that matter. Saying there is some correct way to write just shows unequivocal arrogance by said speaker....or ignorance. Not since the Enlightenment has writing been a so called set "stylized" format; meaning that there were correct ways to write: Intro, Climax, Conclusion being a very simple format.

I looked at Nascent's thread, and by my opinion he's doing nothing "wrong" (what a bad word to use there). He's advising on sentence structure, he's offering what so very few actually get beyond group prognosis at public hearings: one on one time where every detail of what you write is considered, put under scrutiny and the very manner in which you think of what you write is understood. Don't tell me I'm describing a science, that is not right, it's like trying to describe art or art's meaning. Do so and you'll never have a career. So back to Nascent (sorry, third person needed), it's not so much style or format that's being arranged or taught, general areas are being addressed. The manner in which I saw isn't really a problem, he's not ironing out what must be there, but a showing his reader's opinion of what he'd in take.

Now I'd like to focus this on the title of the thread, because let's not be jumpy. Is Online Role-play really writing in the way we're describing? Role-play in play by post format is purely based on the interaction of individuals and how well they adapt and learn of the other's actions and characters, react and bring out their characters. That's a large difference between "Writing" and "Role-playing", immediate response between character focus. Plot and exposition are not the focal points, events and setting, atmosphere, drama, etc...they are barely present in the terms of "writing". Role-play like we're doing here is still very young, but to call it writing is hasty to a nature; consider another large difference, who revision, editing, and drafting.

This simply does not exist on here. Who actually writes drafts of their posts, revises them, edits them, has another look at them, perfects them, and then posts them? No one would ever post and forums would die. That is a key quality of "writing" to me, whereas online role-play in the play by post format, or simply online role-play, does not use that. It's not timely and isn't part of this gig's appeal.

Get me? I'm not calling you out Trap, or really defending Nascent, there's no reason to; it seems like the real topic is what is writing in relation to role-play and more importantly, how do we get better?

I could chat longer on this, but then I'd be discussing Romanticism and Realism, Structuralism, Naturalism, the Classical school and style, etc... Nobody wants that.

[servant]

Apparently I am Nobody.

Please continue, your thoughts intrigue me.

[nascent]

I'm equally impressed; not only by how knowledgeable you are on the subject, but that you obviously have some very well constructed ideas on the matter. Ideas that it seems you and I share, in fact (see 'Deeds of the Writers').

[kempff]

Sorry, I'm appearing pompous, and coming off like it too.

This question is something I feel like I'm getting closer to everyday, when before I didn't even grasp it existed.

What seems to be clear is this, you cannot, CANNOT, hope to effectively please yourself and role-play in a efficient and have "fun" for all, if you do not choose your RP base (the plot, theme, story, etc.) in a way that all members or related individuals can understand and enjoy.

Why do you people choose anime and book series? Why do they not RP original ideas more? Why do they not RP job settings more? We could say age, or we could say the preference of the times....you know on and on. I don't feel like discussing this, just because it gets really broad and ambiguous.

The topic of story for a forum though, is much more interesting and easier to discuss here for the following reasons: the forum mimics the organization of the selected creative work and it is only as successful as the creative work allows all active participants to be entertained and have a place. Most Anime do not fit this category, in fact...neither do most video games. KH is very rare main character centric example of RP that continues to sustain activity. I'd guess why because of: Dicken's like amount of characters, targeted age range grew up with it, a ton of games released for it, SE has a large fan base as does Disney (this is KEY), and it's not really that complex or difficult to understand.

Far too often do people decide to just start a random RP forum on X creative work and expect results. Formulaic creation on X forum host is boring. People want to be motivated and interested, not compelled or begged, much less intimidated or turned off.

Sadly, political structure of a forum must be decided on. Sole-proprietorship are dangerous, all responsibility falls on one person. Partnerships are ok, but then both or all parties must be active and ready for change. Corporate bodies...well I've yet to really see this work, you get Oligarchies instead, which are annoying, and just advanced and very tight lipped Partnerships. That's all concerning admin abilities, so what does it have to do with chosen creative work? Too much, admin must relinquish certain responsibilities and jobs to members if they hope their forums to be successful. A large mod force is ok, but the associated factors in this are numerous.

So why does a creative work impact a forum this much? Doesn't your input and dedication into the matter have any effect? Not as much as you like. You reap what you sow, and you will handle as much as you give yourself initially. An original idea forum can only be as successful as you understand the idea and have it figured out; using some existing creative work means you must be able to analyze the structures in it and be able to transfer them effectively to forum form. So, after reading this far, you might wonder "why is he talking about this?", and I will say this, all things are connected. The subject and plot at hand impact how all RP, how they determine to act according to forum's subject and define their role. No, you're not completely controlled by the subject matter, no I'm not saying you have no autonomy; but if work put into a forum is effective you can expect results (pending member activity, age range, blah blah).

Now. To writing. Forum plot and structure are what spur this on. They help determine it. A nice summary of what is here. Good writing will come if the bar shown by work put into a forum is impressive. An active and impressive member base are also important.

Sorry I rambled, but I thought it was important. IMO, of course.

[nascent]

There's nothing to apologize for! I think you have some very valid points and a lot of insight.

Mind if I reference you as a source in my next article about RPing? Not sure when I'll write it, but insights like yours are worth making widely known.

And I strongly agree, most forums that get started based on one fandom or another are usually in trouble after not too long for exactly the reasons you mentioned. I think it's because of this that a lot of successful RP forums have adopted something of a "multiverse scheme" wherein completely different realities can interact (AnimeLeague, for instance). Isn't it fortunate that KH already had that built in from the outset?

[kempff]

Just credit me for whatever, and fire away however you like. Sounds cool what you're doing, make sure to show me when you're done.

Looking at this, I didn't really directly answer the question what is good writing and what is bad. That's really hard to answer honestly.

[upsilon]

I believe everyone has their own opinions on what 'good' writing style is. Even so, as everyone is different no one should think they have the room to judge and critique on anyone's writing without being asked unless something like improper spacing or lack of punctuation or capitalization is to blame.

Just my thoughts.

[kempff]

That's a valid point Upsilon. It's what makes it frankly impossible to say if any writing is "good or not". Creative Writing today just isn't like the Classical school of writing from before the Enlightenment and Romanticism. We could not even grasp how strict and regimented it was then, most of us would be trash and garbage for what was expected.